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Manliness
#1
I am rereading a book I read a couple of years ago, Manliness, by Harvey Mansfield, a noted professor at Harvard University. It is a commentary on the gender wars, going back to the 50's and he has a definite point of view. It is not heavily academic, but does discuss several prominent authors, going back to De Beauvoir and Friedan. But along the way he has a lot of interesting things to say and affords me the opportunity to rethink femininity. He believes, by the way, that there are manly women: not unfeminine or unladylike, but secure, happy, well balanced people.

Just a thought for you.
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#2
Thank you for sharing that Stacia.  I will definitely have to check that out.
Heart 
Anne
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#3
(12-21-2019, 11:20 AM)Stacia Wrote: I am rereading a book I read a couple of years ago, Manliness, by Harvey Mansfield, a noted professor at Harvard University. It is a commentary on the gender wars, going back to the 50's and he has a definite point of view. It is not heavily academic, but does discuss several prominent authors, going back to De Beauvoir and Friedan. But along the way he has a lot of interesting things to say and affords me the opportunity to rethink femininity. He believes, by the way, that there are manly women: not unfeminine or unladylike, but secure, happy, well balanced people.

Just a thought for you.

Stacia, originally I thought I would be quite the feminine type. But then I realized that not only would that require physical changes, but mental and personality changes as well. The I realized that I don't have to, or want to, change who I am, just to suit the image I believed other's would expect from physical changes. So I have opted for the physical changes, and whatever mental and personality changes that come along for the ride. So that means that I won't be the round the clock dresses, skirts, and perfect makeup woman. Nope, sometimes maybe, but mostly the jeans and top and light makeup type. So if that means I retain some degree of masculinity, then so be it. I'm the one who has to be okay with me, and I won't bend to other's expectations. Hugs, Michelle Heart Heart
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#4
(12-22-2019, 03:04 PM)MichelleL Wrote:
(12-21-2019, 11:20 AM)Stacia Wrote: I am rereading a book I read a couple of years ago, Manliness, by Harvey Mansfield, a noted professor at Harvard University. It is a commentary on the gender wars, going back to the 50's and he has a definite point of view. It is not heavily academic, but does discuss several prominent authors, going back to De Beauvoir and Friedan. But along the way he has a lot of interesting things to say and affords me the opportunity to rethink femininity. He believes, by the way, that there are manly women: not unfeminine or unladylike, but secure, happy, well balanced people.

Just a thought for you.

Stacia, originally I thought I would be quite the feminine type. But then I realized that not only would that require physical changes, but mental and personality changes as well. The I realized that I don't have to, or want to, change who I am, just to suit the image I believed other's would expect from physical changes. So I have opted for the physical changes, and whatever mental and personality changes that come along for the ride. So that means that I won't be the round the clock dresses, skirts, and perfect makeup woman. Nope, sometimes maybe, but mostly the jeans and top and light makeup type. So if that means I retain some degree of masculinity, then so be it. I'm the one who has to be okay with me, and I won't bend to other's expectations. Hugs, Michelle Heart Heart
Michelle,  I'll bet if we could poll the women of America, we would discover that at least half (I think it's much higher than that) of them wear only a light amount of makeup for the vast majority of their awake time.  Marketers like to bombard us with images of beautiful women in lots of makeup but it's just a campaign to convince us we need to wear makeup all the time in a quest to be beautiful 100% of the time for fear that someone will notice that mark, that spot, that imperfection.  If you're mostly in jeans, a top and light makeup, I think you are just another woman in America. Angel
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Anne
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#5
(12-22-2019, 03:04 PM)MichelleL Wrote:
(12-21-2019, 11:20 AM)Stacia Wrote: I am rereading a book I read a couple of years ago, Manliness, by Harvey Mansfield, a noted professor at Harvard University. It is a commentary on the gender wars, going back to the 50's and he has a definite point of view. It is not heavily academic, but does discuss several prominent authors, going back to De Beauvoir and Friedan. But along the way he has a lot of interesting things to say and affords me the opportunity to rethink femininity. He believes, by the way, that there are manly women: not unfeminine or unladylike, but secure, happy, well balanced people.

Just a thought for you.

Stacia, originally I thought I would be quite the feminine type. But then I realized that not only would that require physical changes, but mental and personality changes as well. The I realized that I don't have to, or want to, change who I am, just to suit the image I believed other's would expect from physical changes. So I have opted for the physical changes, and whatever mental and personality changes that come along for the ride. So that means that I won't be the round the clock dresses, skirts, and perfect makeup woman. Nope, sometimes maybe, but mostly the jeans and top and light makeup type. So if that means I retain some degree of masculinity, then so be it. I'm the one who has to be okay with me, and I won't bend to other's expectations. Hugs, Michelle Heart Heart

I have thought more about a transition than I have done so far. I look at the women around me, especially at my age, and constantly ask myself "Do I want to be that?" Reading Harvey Mansfield got me to see that I wouldn't have to give up the personal characteristics I like in myself and I wouldn't have to take on more "traditionally" feminine ones that didn't fit the rest of my life. I am already more empathetic, more emotionally affectionate and caring than a lot of men; more nurturing. My wife is quite spoiled and she would tell you that, as are my family members. I fell for the song "Someone to Watch Over Me" early in life and thought for a long time I wanted someone to take care of me. Well, the joke turned out to be on me, because I went looking for someone to watch over and found them, all whole bunch. It was stunning to come to the realization how little I would have to change emotionally, temperamentally to pass as a woman, to be a woman. On a lighter note, I think quite often of a line from a movie, re this discussion, from Trading Places. Denholm Elliot drops Eddy Murphy off at the Duke and Duke building for the first time and Murphy looks at him and plaintively asks What am I supposed to do here? And Elliot says "Just be yourself...whatever else they can't take that away from you". People trying so desperately to affect what is not within are asking for mental illness.

I use a lot of little aphorisms, little interventions, to help out in rubs..."just be yourself..." is one I use often.
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#6
A very good topic. I have always considered myself to be more feminine than masculine. Now that I am retired, I pretty much live 24/7 now as a female. I am accepted by people as a woman and am always referred when out and about as ma’am, Miss, etc. I guess I can relate to what Michelle said. I just try to blend in as any other woman doing her thing. I can also get dolled up on occasion, but it’s mostly leggings, tights, jeans and assorted tops when I am out and light makeup as well. And I also love sports, which I guess you can say brings out my masculine side. It’s complicated, but it’s me. Hugs, Suzy and Merry Christmas to everyone!
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#7
(12-23-2019, 11:28 AM)Stacia Wrote:
(12-22-2019, 03:04 PM)MichelleL Wrote:
(12-21-2019, 11:20 AM)Stacia Wrote: I am rereading a book I read a couple of years ago, Manliness, by Harvey Mansfield, a noted professor at Harvard University. It is a commentary on the gender wars, going back to the 50's and he has a definite point of view. It is not heavily academic, but does discuss several prominent authors, going back to De Beauvoir and Friedan. But along the way he has a lot of interesting things to say and affords me the opportunity to rethink femininity. He believes, by the way, that there are manly women: not unfeminine or unladylike, but secure, happy, well balanced people.

Just a thought for you.

Stacia, originally I thought I would be quite the feminine type. But then I realized that not only would that require physical changes, but mental and personality changes as well. The I realized that I don't have to, or want to, change who I am, just to suit the image I believed other's would expect from physical changes. So I have opted for the physical changes, and whatever mental and personality changes that come along for the ride. So that means that I won't be the round the clock dresses, skirts, and perfect makeup woman. Nope, sometimes maybe, but mostly the jeans and top and light makeup type. So if that means I retain some degree of masculinity, then so be it. I'm the one who has to be okay with me, and I won't bend to other's expectations. Hugs, Michelle Heart Heart

I have thought more about a transition than I have done so far. I look at the women around me, especially at my age, and constantly ask myself "Do I want to be that?" Reading Harvey Mansfield got me to see that I wouldn't have to give up the personal characteristics I like in myself and I wouldn't have to take on more "traditionally" feminine ones that didn't fit the rest of my life. I am already more empathetic, more emotionally affectionate and caring than a lot of men; more nurturing. My wife is quite spoiled and she would tell you that, as are my family members. I fell for the song "Someone to Watch Over Me" early in life and thought for a long time I wanted someone to take care of me. Well, the joke turned out to be on me, because I went looking for someone to watch over and found them, all whole bunch. It was stunning to come to the realization how little I would have to change emotionally, temperamentally to pass as a woman, to be a woman. On a lighter note, I think quite often of a line from a movie, re this discussion, from Trading Places. Denholm Elliot drops Eddy Murphy off at the Duke and Duke building for the first time and Murphy looks at him and plaintively asks What am I supposed to do here? And Elliot says "Just be yourself...whatever else they can't take that away from you". People trying so desperately to affect what is not within are asking for mental illness.

I use a lot of little aphorisms, little interventions, to help out in rubs..."just be yourself..." is one I use often.

Michelle...you are the flat out bomb!  You have your s*** together like nobody else, and you are going through what you are going through....just incredible, educated, planful (ok, that's not really a word but...) view of yourself and the world.  Thank you for including us on your journey!!!
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#8
(12-23-2019, 06:08 PM)michelle.busty Wrote:
(12-23-2019, 11:28 AM)Stacia Wrote:
(12-22-2019, 03:04 PM)MichelleL Wrote:
(12-21-2019, 11:20 AM)Stacia Wrote: I am rereading a book I read a couple of years ago, Manliness, by Harvey Mansfield, a noted professor at Harvard University. It is a commentary on the gender wars, going back to the 50's and he has a definite point of view. It is not heavily academic, but does discuss several prominent authors, going back to De Beauvoir and Friedan. But along the way he has a lot of interesting things to say and affords me the opportunity to rethink femininity. He believes, by the way, that there are manly women: not unfeminine or unladylike, but secure, happy, well balanced people.

Just a thought for you.

Stacia, originally I thought I would be quite the feminine type. But then I realized that not only would that require physical changes, but mental and personality changes as well. The I realized that I don't have to, or want to, change who I am, just to suit the image I believed other's would expect from physical changes. So I have opted for the physical changes, and whatever mental and personality changes that come along for the ride. So that means that I won't be the round the clock dresses, skirts, and perfect makeup woman. Nope, sometimes maybe, but mostly the jeans and top and light makeup type. So if that means I retain some degree of masculinity, then so be it. I'm the one who has to be okay with me, and I won't bend to other's expectations. Hugs, Michelle Heart Heart

I have thought more about a transition than I have done so far. I look at the women around me, especially at my age, and constantly ask myself "Do I want to be that?" Reading Harvey Mansfield got me to see that I wouldn't have to give up the personal characteristics I like in myself and I wouldn't have to take on more "traditionally" feminine ones that didn't fit the rest of my life. I am already more empathetic, more emotionally affectionate and caring than a lot of men; more nurturing. My wife is quite spoiled and she would tell you that, as are my family members. I fell for the song "Someone to Watch Over Me" early in life and thought for a long time I wanted someone to take care of me. Well, the joke turned out to be on me, because I went looking for someone to watch over and found them, all whole bunch. It was stunning to come to the realization how little I would have to change emotionally, temperamentally to pass as a woman, to be a woman. On a lighter note, I think quite often of a line from a movie, re this discussion, from Trading Places. Denholm Elliot drops Eddy Murphy off at the Duke and Duke building for the first time and Murphy looks at him and plaintively asks What am I supposed to do here? And Elliot says "Just be yourself...whatever else they can't take that away from you". People trying so desperately to affect what is not within are asking for mental illness.

I use a lot of little aphorisms, little interventions, to help out in rubs..."just be yourself..." is one I use often.

Michelle...you are the flat out bomb!  You have your s*** together like nobody else, and you are going through what you are going through....just incredible, educated, planful (ok, that's not really a word but...) view of yourself and the world.  Thank you for including us on your journey!!!
Oh pish posh, or fiddle sticks, or (insert silliness here). This ain't 'rocket surgery' (I so want a lab coat with NASA on the breast pocket and ROCKET SURGEON emblazoned on the back). Anyway, we are just people. Some people have this kind of shell, and the rest have their own shell (as in body....). I like to adorn my shell my way, and other's adorn theirs some other way. And if I want to put on a bikini, flack jacket, and helmet with camo makeup, and target shoot a bunch of watermelons; pretending they are zombies..... Or plant flowers in a garden wearing booty shorts, crop top, and high heels...... Or sit around a bar smoking cigars, drinking 20+ year old single malt scotch, with a bunch of guys, talking about (insert sex fantasy here)..... IT DOESN'T MATTER. I sometimes we think too much about what the world expects from us, and then we forget to just be us. Personally, I like to build plastic models with my boys, collect stamps (I love first day covers), collect coins (I love weird foreign coins). Sometime I even do that in just panties and a pair of shorts! I do like old single malt scotch; just not with guys and cigars... So, and I have thought about this before; we all seem to be a bright bunch of women, if any of you all ever just want to chat in a thread about just the fun stuff you enjoy doing; (as they say down south here) Hell yea! Count me in. Love you all, Michelle Heart Heart
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